SM58

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Stryker57
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SM58

Post by Stryker57 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:56 pm

maybe you all can help me I have 2 shure sm58 vocal mics that are killing me with feedback, one is an older model and the other is about a year old.
I have a old audiotechs that sounds fuller and will flat outperform the shures hands down with no feedback. I always read how the SM58s are so great for vocals, but my experience with these is starting to get irritating.

Does anyone else have this problem too or is it just in my set up?

Also on recordings I find i have too boost the low end or they sound over bright. looking at the freq response they seem to have a +3 to 5 DB boost starting at 2k to 6ishk with a drop to 0 dbs at 7k then another 4db bost in the 9k area... luckily I am blessed with a singer with a strong Bob Seager style voice but his most often request is for more fullness for his monitor... so I am begining to wonder if we made a bad choice for his vocals or if maybe we just got one of the rare bad shure mics. ( the older sm58 is being used for the drummer and really isnt as bad and it sits pretty much infront of the monitor)

so my question is really before i calculate another new adjustment for my feedback problem. is this normal or am i dealing with a more localized SM58 problem ( my setup or the mic itself) which it very possibly be.

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SemperFiSound
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Re: SM58

Post by SemperFiSound » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:21 pm

Stryker,
I use 58s and 58Betas a lot. No feedback issues.

A few things come to mind:
- since you notice a significant difference between your two 58s, are you sure that the newer mic is really a Shure? There were a LOT of counterfeits out there, especially on eBay and CL. They were "new in the box" and the box really looked authentic, until you put it next to a real one.
- are you getting FOH or monitor feedback?
- the 58 is a basic cardioid pattern with max rejection directly behind it. Is that where the monitor is or do you have them on a 45 degree angle (which will feedback epically).
- If monitor, is the monitor pointed DIRECTLY at the back of the mic, or is it pointed at the underside at a nice 45 degree feedback angle?
- Do you have a 31 channel EQ for each monitor mix? You can thicken up ol' Bob's voice in the monitor without affecting FOH and control feedback at the same time.

Cheers,
Steve
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Stryker57
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Re: SM58

Post by Stryker57 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:39 am

Bought new it from Guitar center so I think its real, but I admit I havent looked at it super hard, never considered the counterfeit angle.

Its set 180 from monitor or pretty close to that.

Monitor feedback... we are resetting up at new location (was 12 X 12 room with 2 gui( & vocals) and bass facing the drummer....which i just figured I was pushing it close to feedback levels & only had the PV12Ms) now we are spread out across a wall in a 30 X 40 finished Basement.

No to EQ its on the list :-)

I even just went out and bought enough cords to run all the monitors as a balanced system.

I never really considered the recording into the mics sound( I record the vocals off the board into a seperate channel ) until I got to the new place and have added in the SP15M monitor the IPR3000 and now My mic ( the audiotech) straight out kicks the SM58s ass in level/feedback and voice reproduction . to further this point I can run major effects ( strong delay , and plenty of reverb)through mine and not a hint of any feedback. the SM58 almost dry is a decent level but you can hear it trying to ring, and isnt near the dBs or strength.
I know an EQ will help and if they was close to levels I wouldnt even consider this a problem to bring up. Maybe its just the freq Patterns. Maybe its the fact I am not running All 58s, but just figured I would ask if anyone else ran into this type of problem with a 58 before.


TY much Steve for the time..
The new monitor and ipr3000 are even more awesome then I thought they would be.

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Re: SM58

Post by PinkPaisleyTele » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:05 am

Check your gain structure. If you are running your input gain to the same level as your other mics this could be you issue.

It is highly likely that the Shure has greater output than your other mics. If your running the gain too hot you will get tons of feedback. Try rolling the gain back some and increasing the volume with your fader.

One quick trick I use is to roll the gain all the way down. Push the fader nearly all the way up. Roll the gain up until it starts to feed. Roll it back just a tick and you should be good from there on out.
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SemperFiSound
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Re: SM58

Post by SemperFiSound » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:52 am

Stryker57 wrote: to further this point I can run major effects ( strong delay , and plenty of reverb)through mine and not a hint of any feedback. the SM58 almost dry is a decent level but you can hear it trying to ring, and isnt near the dBs or strength.
If you are running efx thru the monitor system, that will contribute heavily. Since your mic system seems to be working, swap out with a 58 and see if your IPR and SP ring earlier with a 58. Play with your toys!

Cheers,
Steve
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the enemy's coming or not, but on our own readiness to receive him... no
matter what he does." Sun Tzu

Marty McCann
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Re: SM58

Post by Marty McCann » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:07 pm

Dynamic microphones involve electronic, magnetic, and mechanical principles. With any dynamic mic, a problem with any one of these three areas results in less than optimum performance.

Also there is always that "different voice".

My suggestion is try all three for the lead singer and use which ever sounds best in bvothl the FOH and Monitors.

Stryker57
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Re: SM58

Post by Stryker57 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:47 pm

aye thats what i will do next practice. He wasnt at last weeks practice with the holidays and I tried his mic on the last song, like i said it was decent but just not as full or strong as mine. Then on the way home I got to thinking more about it and figured i'd ask you all cause the SM58 is such a well thought of mic, I was sure you all used them at one time or another.

It could just be simply the freq of the mic just hits the problem areas of our set up. we even have a colbalt the bass player uses for his few back ups he does, so before I worry to much I will try all the mics with him and he'll get what works best for him even if its mine.

an eq will be coming in the future till then I'll just use whats in the 16fx mixer.

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Re: SM58

Post by shredder » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:13 pm

Hold on.... NO EQ? That's your problem right there. Look no further.
There's no freq like a low freq!

Stryker57
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Re: SM58

Post by Stryker57 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:40 pm

so I can run the cheap mic w/o an eq, achieve great headroom/dBs and way too much effects... but to run what is considered a highend line mic I have to have an eq?

sorry I disagree this time Because I really hope this isnt the situation, but yes it is possible ,Yes I know the lack of a EQ will not allow me to get the most out of my system and would assist me greatly in taking out the rings, but if I have to use an eq to flatline all the peaks in the 58 whats the use of having one?

once i swap the 2 mics I'll know for sure if maybe i just got a bad mic or if its just not compatable with my setup till i do get a eq. I would hate to pack up a 58 and use cheaper mics because they sound better and can perform better. It just dont seem right, lol but anything is possible.

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Re: SM58

Post by Marty McCann » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:35 am

The rule of thumb for microphones, is that "like" applications should have identical make and model mics.

Every mic (other than a flat Omini) has it's peaks and dips. Different mics have them in different places. Which makes it very difficult to control feedback, and nearly impossible without an equalizer.

Proper placement of the monitor enclosures goes a long way in minimizing feedback. The monitor should be playing into the null of the microphone's pickup pattern. This is usually at the base of the microphone stand with cardioid pattern mics and to the side with hyper or super-cardioids.

Because you have 4 different model microphones and no EQ; YMMV.

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Re: SM58

Post by seprowling » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:17 am

Marty McCann wrote:The rule of thumb for microphones, is that "like" applications should have identical make and model mics.



Because you have 4 different model microphones and no EQ; YMMV.

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Josjor
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Re: SM58

Post by Josjor » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:36 pm

Feedback resolution:
70% monitor/speaker to microphone placement
15% proper gain structure settings
10% proper eq'ing
5% proper microphone useage by singer
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SemperFiSound
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Re: SM58

Post by SemperFiSound » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:25 pm

It may be 5%, but that last one can get awful loud AND expensive very quickly...

Stryker57
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Re: SM58

Post by Stryker57 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:40 pm

Josjor wrote:Feedback resolution:
70% monitor/speaker to microphone placement
15% proper gain structure settings
10% proper eq'ing
5% proper microphone useage by singer
That sound about right.

Ty all for the advice , ideas, and comments, each whether I agree wholeheartitly outright with or not each is considered and I try to either figure out a way to eliminate each possible feedback problem you have meantioned or be positive i have ruled it out and even consider ruling it out again. an eq just isnt feezable atm due to lack of funds, so i understand from the start I could not solve all issues.
also open for other ideas if ya think of one, but the main thing i want to do 1st is switch mics around and eliminate or confirm the new 58s status in the problem. atm i am leaning towards either bad mic/cord or the 58 freqs are just the problem freq my system has(which an EQ could help or fix), but am keepin an open mind.

plus i'll recheck my gain stuctures even though I am pretty sure they are right or close but it will not hurt to recheck.

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Re: SM58

Post by shredder » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:18 pm

Stryker57 wrote: if I have to use an eq to flatline all the peaks in the 58 whats the use of having one?

.
Well, the whole point is system optimization. If your system is feeding back then there are frequencies that are over represented in your outputs. The multi band EQ can get those wild frequencies under control so that you can actually get the amount of headroom that your system actually has. You can't possibly optimize your system without some EQ correction on a main/monitor mix output. So, the goal is not to EQ out the presence peak of the mic, it is instead to allow maximum overall system gain before feedback. There are tools available to assist you with this.
There's no freq like a low freq!

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