sp-2 primar help please

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madmetal
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sp-2 primar help please

Post by madmetal » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:02 pm

new to the forum and self admit little knowledge when it comes to all the ins and outs of amps\pa's. I did search and found the sound system setup download from like 11 years ago so I am trying to help myself. However a shortcut from those with knowledge is always appreciated. I am not very up to speed on the jargon so treat me like a child that can use a dictionary.

Scenario is, local music shop gifted me a set of sp-2 BW, in nice shape, tested and all seems good. I caught bits of info here and there as to normal full range bi amp hi low plugs as related to Peavey 115 International but still not sure the best way to run my cabling with these. i have a small berhriner europower ep2000 currently running a set of Bose 802's (with equalizer) which were another gifted thing. Apparently i like using old vintage stuff, and i can hear the ditch the old shit comments but just not into spending the bucks for new powered cabs.
So i originally thought i could just run the sp-2's in a parallel configuration off one channel from the berhriner but after reading about the "normal\full range" on the sp-2 I'm a bit at a lose as to the should i, could i hook ups.

Also read the sp-2 seemed to be a sweetheart match to the peavey cs800 amps. After looking at the rear panel of a cs800, it became clear it was not exactly a straightforward hookup. Was able to find a cs800 manual on-line and now aware of the need for the jumpers as well as the pl-2 transformer module. Not sure what each one looks like as well as if those are weak spots on buying an cs800. also have no idea about all the crossover loZ stuff. My understanding is with two cabs i would run them mono loZ from my mixer which is actually a motu 828es...see im not totally vintage.

So the three questions:
1) Simplest way to cable the sp2 (amp->line in ->cab#1 -> line out ->cab#2).
2) Is there magic between the sp-2's & cs800 or a total rabbit hole to avoid going down. If so, suggestions on an amp that would work nicely with the cabs?
3) Give the gift that keeps on giving and send em down the road..lol

Playing blues\rock stuff and honestly they will probably never leave my practice area (currently a 625 sq ft, but may move to my 1800 space). They may possibly do outdoor party service for our local block party but no gigging as those days are long gone.
Appreciate in advance all help
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Stryker57
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by Stryker57 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:08 pm

the absolute easiest would be 1 channel one of the cs 800 into 1 sp2 full range input . and then do the same with the other channel and sp2

Dookie
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by Dookie » Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:25 pm

Welcome. Nothing wrong with vintage gear and the SP2's you have. I started doing sound many years ago with Sp2's like these. The two Normal inputs are a Parrell inputs. Either can be used to go in or go out. You could go out Channel A on the amp and then would plug into one of these inputs. Then go out of the other normal jack and into the other speaker. This would give you a 4-ohm load at the amp.( 2–8-ohm speakers in Parrell give you a 4-ohm load) Your berhriner europower ep2000 is rated at 750 watts per channel with the amp in stereo mode with a 4-ohm load. The 750 watts would be divided up between the 2 speakers so each speaker would be getting 375 watts program when the clip light on the amp just starts to light. You would then turn down just a little or more, so you don't push things too hard.
These speakers are rated at 150 watts RMS, 300 watts program, 600 watts peak. Peavey recommends amps between RMS and Program rating. Your 375 watts available is slightly above that but if you don't feed the amp to where the peak light is on just once in a great while you'll be fine. It's better to have more power available and not clip the amp.

I'd certainly keep them. Good output and clarity for the speaker that they are.

Doug

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madmetal
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by madmetal » Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:05 am

Appreciate the input as well as the input. I made a trip back to the store that gifted the unit thinking a cs-800 might have come in with the gear. Sure enough there it was, as well as the stereo 10 band eq. The cs was priced quite reasonably, a fraction of what is being asked on the web so i snatched it up. Nothing like having a sherman tank. Good news is, it should have been marked as is but wasnt so its being sent out for servicing on a few items at n\c. Sometimes things do go right!!
Although i have all the digital eq stuff in the motu interfaces, i am very tempted to pick up the eq - just to have matching tanks. Haven't found much regarding if they were any good or if it is another decent piece to have for the system...priced around $30 so its not like a big deal breaker. honestly probably more a footprint issue. Even that's minor. Any thoughts on the EQ?

Dookie
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by Dookie » Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:18 am

madmetal wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:05 am
Appreciate the input as well as the input. I made a trip back to the store that gifted the unit thinking a cs-800 might have come in with the gear. Sure enough there it was, as well as the stereo 10 band eq. The cs was priced quite reasonably, a fraction of what is being asked on the web so i snatched it up. Nothing like having a sherman tank. Good news is, it should have been marked as is but wasnt so its being sent out for servicing on a few items at n\c. Sometimes things do go right!!
Although i have all the digital eq stuff in the motu interfaces, i am very tempted to pick up the eq - just to have matching tanks. Haven't found much regarding if they were any good or if it is another decent piece to have for the system...priced around $30 so its not like a big deal breaker. honestly probably more a footprint issue. Even that's minor. Any thoughts on the EQ?
I can't comment on the eq as I'm unsure of the make/model? As far as the old CS800 it is important to know that the older ones had Pin 1 Ground, Pin 2 Inverted and Pin 3 as the Positive input. Today's standard coming out of most desk/preamps are Pin 1 ground, Pin 2 Positive and Pin 3 Inverted. The Qusi-Ground input puts Pin 1 and 2 together at the amp so with the new standard that puts Pin 1 ground and Pin 2 positive together. Not really a good thing. If your going to use it make up a short XLR cable with pins 2 and 3 switched on "one" end. I made mine so it was the input of the amp side. This will give you much better sound. :wink:

Edit: If your using a short 1/4 inch unbalanced cable to feed the amp then the above regarding the XLR inputs of course doesn't apply.

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madmetal
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by madmetal » Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:10 pm

Thanks for the info..the eq is actually the peavey stereo 10 band. Although i got the docs from the peavey site, it didnt really offer much:
https://assets.peavey.com/literature/ma ... 361000.pdf
After reading about the various cs-800 releases, this was the doc that matched mine at least by visual. Not sure if there are various releases within this model. dont have the unit right now to get a serial # but my guess is they were turned in as a paired unit.
https://assets.peavey.com/literature/ma ... 300991.pdf
I suspect using the 1/4 unbalanced is a better route then testing my cable making skills..lol
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Dookie
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by Dookie » Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:48 am

If that Eq is working correctly it would be handy to use. It has low cut that takes low frequencies the Sp2's woofer can't reproduce/handle and High Cut which takes the highest of frequencies out the SP2's horn that it can't handle/reproduce out. Start with the eq sliders all at zero or in the middle. Have your Preamp/Desk eq's it may have set to flat at first that is feeding the eq. Set the Low Cut to 50hz and the high cut to around 16khz or about 1/2 way between 10 and 20k on the knob. Keep the 30hz slider at zero. The Sp2 can't reproduce 30hz and anything blow 50 hz anyway in any useable amount so this will only use up wattage and push the woofer cone with no benefit to the sound. Set 60hz to +3 to +5. 120hz to +2. 250 to -4. 500hz to -4. 1k and 2k leave at 0. 4k down to -3 and 8k down to -5. With this done give it a listen for a while then if your preamp/desk has eq use those from there.

Doug

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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by netrecce » Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:35 am

Congratulations on acquiring your SP2 / CS800 gear!

I think the Peavey CS800 is one of the very best power amps ever made. I still have 6 of these heavy weight beauties. And they truly are a sweetheart pairing with SP2's. I have tried substituting CS1000's in my systems and regretted it. The solid full range clarity of the CS800 is superior. ( I now reserve my CS1000's for sub's-only.)

With SP2's you have re-entered the era of heavy wood-box enclosures designed to optimize the performance and clarity of relatively low-powered amps and speakers. They did a great job of it. Modern lightweight powered speakers have very different design parameters. I have both... and side-by-side I always prefer the sweet deep voice of old wood box mains.

Cabling? Always shoot for "balanced" cables whenever possible for you.

Cheers!
.

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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by madmetal » Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:27 pm

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Thanks for both replies. Yes the eq is working and appreciate the starting points and insight into the sp2. Totally get the why waste power for no use and probably abuse to the woofs.
Netrecce..my past life i did machining\metal fabrication. Most of my machines (industrial) were made before i was born (i'm 66). They are stout, a thing of crafted beauty in their own rights, and out perform most of the commodity stuff sold today. I was taking a gamble the cs-800\sp2 fell into the same category.
Just like Sarah M. saves puppies for .66 cents a day, i guess i am a vintage rescue guy. One thing for sure is, once they are gone, they are gone.

Regarding the cabling, getting conflicting info here Some say unbalanced due to the ground pin issues. The only cabling will be between the peavey equalizer, cs-800 and sp-2 cabs. In my mind they were all a match set as far as the ground standard. I was initially thinking of going to go with the xlr.

I'll be the first to admit i am a bit of a deer in the head light on all the possible connections on the patch panel. The docs talk about jumpers and pl-2 transformer module. Are the round pinned disks shown in the photo the pl-2 modules or jumpers?
All the cross over hi low stuff is beyond me, and probably beyond my simple application. The electronics game is beyond me
As to the front panel, sounds like run it with the compression enabled.
My motu stuff (828 es) was going to be the feed in. Never really thought about the pre-amp and wont be using a mixing board. So all the input sensitivity setting stuff again has me a bit baffles as how to set it. User Doc make it sound like turn it all the way clockwise unless "there is a specific reason not to". How would i know that specific reason? Fire coming out of the front??? :o lol
So does the cs-800 need a preamp? Kind seeing no it doesnt
If no preamp is needed, do the sensitivity controls act as volume controls?
Again appreciate the help as i am used to wire up speakers strands, power on and go
Last edited by madmetal on Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

netrecce
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by netrecce » Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:08 am

Madmetal:
I see by your CS 800 photos that the Operating Guide link you posted above doesn't match your amp. It's for a later version. My amps are the later version. Your earlier version is layed out differently. So, let's start over. Here's a link to the correct Operating Guide that does match your earlier CS 800:

https://assets.peavey.com/literature/ma ... 300068.pdf
.

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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by Dookie » Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:59 pm

As seen in this image the XLR input to the amp is pin 1 and 2 ground strapped together and Pin 3 as Hot or Positive. Could you post a picture of the back/inputs of the EQ? If the input to the eq is Pin 1 and 2 ground and 3 hot/positive and what is feeding the eq is pin 1-3 ground, pin 2 hot then that will feed it down the line wrong from the input of the eq :wink: I had a bunch of those XLR jumper caps like in your photo. Those are not the cans but just jumpers. They are not that hard to find in the ebay kind of sites. Here is what a Pl-balancing transformer can looks like and the PL-800EQ looks like that was used to bi-amp the sp2's of that era.
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madmetal
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by madmetal » Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:42 am

Again thanks to all.
Netrecce - appreciate the link. I did find that after i had the one for the later models and apparently didnt clean out my files..Thanks for looking out.

Doug - Eq is in the rack right now but pulling all out tomorrow. Will shoot a picture then.
So clearly i don't know anything regarding the input feed options. To ask another way, I have two of the jumpers - what is the simplest input feed?
- is the low z for something coming in off a mixing board?
- What would feed the "power amp"inputs
My current layout is taking the feeds from the Motu 828-es which is currently connected 1/4 to rca to a carver pre-amp. The carver feeds the Peavey EQ which feeds my NAD amp. NAD out to the sp-2's full range input. All sounds hunky Dorie. I originally thought the cs-800 would just be a straight swap out for the NAD. Will have to double check but i believe I used all TRS cabling to and from the Peavey EQ. Cant say i have notice anything odd about the sound other then the eq seems to lower the output just a tad running flat.
I am realizing all that I don't know. I'm just a drummer that is trying to put together a decent pa for a bunch of old guys that play music for the sake of music
edit: re-reading everything and with everyone's help, i think i get it now. Sounds like the eq qualifies as the low input feed. I was also surprised to read in the stereo eq doc that it also functions as "a high quality line amp providing more than+20 db into 600 ohms at the balance output"
The pl-2's & suggested crossover module. I was unclear if only two or four jumpers were required when reading the factory ship statement which says"jumpers placed in the transformer accessory and crossover accessory sockets" Given two channels it implies factory shipped would have had 4 (mine came with just two). I picked up a couple extra just in case--otherwise i'm sure there good for...well something :D
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Dookie
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by Dookie » Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:35 pm

First Question. Input B has 2 cables going into it and out of it. Those inputs are Parrell, so you don't want to have a stereo input going into those. What are those 2 cables going in from and out to? If it is a left and right off a stereo source, you're shorting them somewhat and it's not a good idea to do so. You mentioned ""My current layout is taking the feeds from the Motu 828-es which is currently connected 1/4 to rca to a carver pre-amp. The carver feeds the Peavey EQ which feeds my NAD amp"""
FEEDS to me suggest 2 channels?? If it is left and right going into the B in on the eq this is not a good thing to do.

First and foremost, how far away are all these devices from each other? Are they all in 1 rack or close by to each other?

(Motu 828-es connected 1/4 to rca to a carver pre-amp) This would seem to be a Line level device going into a RCA or another way to say it is a 0dbu device going into a -10dbu RCA input. You'll need to watch the output of the 828 so you don't overdrive the Carver Preamp.

"""The carver feeds the Peavey EQ which feeds my NAD amp""" I'm guessing again by looking at your pictures that the -10dbu Carver feeds a 0dbu (line level) Peavey eq. Not a big problem other than again combining Left and Right into one channel which you really shouldn't do.

""Peavey EQ which feeds my NAD amp"" Not sure if the Nad amp is getting both channels into a single channel or you're using 2. Regardless you're putting the Peavey in its place.

If you can get 2 more of the Jumper/Dummy plugs like the 2 that came with your amp this is what you can do. Install the 4 jumper plugs.

Go left/right out of the Motu 828 stereo going into the Carver preamp with the cables you have.
Go out of the Carver preamp with the Left/Right cables and go Left into A in on the EQ and Right into channel B on the eq.

Because the EQ is listed as Pin 1 and 2 out as ground and Pin 3 as hot you can use an XLR cable between the eq an amp if you want as the EQ and the peavey amp you have are wired the same looking at the eq manual. If the EQ and the amp are closer than 10 feet or so you can use regular 1/4 inch unbalanced cables between them. Last go out A on the eq to amp input A then out to 1 speaker. Out the B on the eq to the B in on the amp to the other speaker. The amp gives 240 watts per channel with an 8 ohm load and each SP2 is an 8 ohm load. That is somewhat conservative so in reality you'll have more.

Also note you may want to set the EQ output to +6 or so as the Carvin preamp is a RCA out device which is -10dbu so it is not designed to push a power amp like a CS800 to full power. The CS800 takes around 1.4 volts to reach full output (if I remember right,I'll have to look later) and the Carvin simply can't reach that output with enough remaining headroom.
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Dookie
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by Dookie » Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:43 pm

In regard to the knobs on the front of the Peavey CS800.

Those are "INPUT Sensitivity knobs"

Those determine how much voltage it takes from an eq or preamp etc. to get the amp to put out full output. This is because there may be a reason where a person may want to match different speakers that have different output sensitivities or using an amp to drive a horn etc.
With the knob turned full up it may take 1.4 volts of input from a source for the amp to give full output. As you start to turn the knob down it may take 3 volts from a preamp before the amp gives full output. It still gives full output it just takes more input for it to do so.
This knob doesn't limit the output wattage the amp gives just how much voltage it takes at the inputs to give full output.

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madmetal
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Re: sp-2 primar help please

Post by madmetal » Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:57 am

The NAD\Carver setup are just a test system which will get replaced by the Peavey cs-800 and EQ when all the required setup pieces are in hand. The PL-2, 2 additional terminator caps are on their way. Two of the Pl-800 still in original Peavey packaging just arrived.

Desired final setup Motu outs to Peavey stereo Eq->Peaver CS-800 -> two sp2's. Everything in Stereo mode. Pending question: Will i need a more suited premap?

The Motu 828-es 1/4 outs are balanced or unbalanced capable. Through the Motu interface i can select output to be stereo or mono.
Motu Specs
Line Out
Connector Type 1/4” Female, TRS Balanced, tip hot
Output Impedance 100 ohm Per leg
Dynamic Range 123 dB A-weighted
THD+N -108 dB -2 dBFS, Unweighted, 1 kHz
Frequency Response +0, -0.1 dB, 20 Hz/20 kHz Ref. 1 kHz
Max Level Out +20 dBu
Trim Range 24 dB -4 dBu to +20 dBu in 1 dB steps
Main Out
Connector Type XLR Male
Output Impedance 100 ohm Per leg
Dynamic Range 123 dB A-weighted
THD+N -109 dB -2 dBFS, Unweighted, 1 kHz
Frequency Response +0, -0.1 dB, 20 Hz/20 kHz Ref. 1 kHz
Max Level Out +20 dBu
Trim Range 24 dB -4 dBu to +20 dBu in 1 dB steps


First Question. Input B has 2 cables going into it and out of it
- Yes, i ran those parallel as it was suggested from the store. i have since moved one to input A and one to Input B (unbalanced cables).

What are those 2 cables going in from
The Carver C1 preamp outputs are Aux outs (RCA L & R)
Currently, the carver preamp is running flat but with infrasonic filter active. It feeds the Peavey EQ which is set to bypass mode
- carver specs (total foreign language to me therefore meaningless)
infrasonic filter - 18 db per oct below 20 hz f3=15 hz
Noise high level 96dbv, ihf-a, below 2 Vrms
Tone 96 dBV, IHF-A
Infrasonic Filter 95dBV, IHf-A

What are those 2 cables going out to
The outs from the Peavey EQ go to the NAD 2200 in stereo unbridged mode, soft clip enabled.
- NAD can drive 2 ohms
- rms 100 8 ohm
- peak 500

First and foremost, how far away are all these devices from each other? Yes, two racks on wheels that sit side by side. Amp on top, eq below..air space and then the carver\NAD. Second rack all the Motu\mic preamps\power conditioner etc.

I'm guessing again by looking at your pictures that the -10dbu Carver feeds a 0dbu (line level) Peavey eq

I was under the impression that the rca out from the carver pre was L&R mono signal and output at line level.
I have since moved the EQ in/out lines, 1 on channel A 1 on Channel B as suggested

you may want to set the EQ output to +6

Again i thought all rca outs were line level
I have trying find what might be a more appropriate commercial preamp for CS-800 but not finding much info for old gear and not really sure how to match one up.
Given the motu specs which has all the digital mixer outs and gains, could that possibly drive the CS-800? It is advertised as a standalone stage mixer but who knows, they might be talking about a DJs daughters karaoke birthday party (sarcastic humor)
Is there a cheat sheet formula to use to determine the output sensitivity setting?

And finally, the peavey eq doc states it can be used as a line amp providing +20 db into 600 Ohms @ balanced output. Does this make the Caver C-2 or Motu more usable as a initial source.

Again, thanks to all, especially Doug, for all the patience and information. Any suggestions on reading material to be more educated, especially on the old gear, would greatly appreciated

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