115 international HC speakers

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Drummerboy1962
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115 international HC speakers

Post by Drummerboy1962 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:16 pm

I just got a pair of 115 International HC 3 way loudspeakers and I can't find any info about them

Dookie
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Re: 115 international HC speakers

Post by Dookie » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm

Drummerboy1962 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:16 pm
I just got a pair of 115 International HC 3 way loudspeakers and I can't find any info about them
The Peavey 115 International had a 1505 Black Widow, a 22A on a CH3 flare and a HT94 super tweeter. The wattage rating may be on the back of them. They can be Bi-Amped if I remember right. You'd go into the full range with frequencies above the woofer range to use the passive crossover inside to do the split between the 22A mid-range horn and the HT94 super tweeter. Then go into the Low with the right frequency for a direct shot to the woofer. The Low in jack is a switching jack that bypasses the internal crossover. They do sound fine run full range though.

Lenartd
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Re: 115 international HC speakers

Post by Lenartd » Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:58 pm

Okay this may be a stupid question but I will ask it anyway. I also have a pair of Peavey 115 International three way speakers. I have run them in full range and they sound great. I have searched the internet for a manual and I haven't found one. I would like to bi-amp the woofers for mids and the horn and tweeter for highs. I have two Black Widow equipped FH 1's I want to use for low end. I hope to use a three way rack mounted crossover so I can control the cross over frequencies.

Here are the stupid questions. Can I use one amplifier for the bi-amp low input and another amplifier for the bi-amp high input? The bi-amp low input has a 1/4" jack. The Full Range/Bi-amp high has a 1/4" jack and a XLR female jack. Without a manual, I am guessing on the XLR jack function. If the low in jack bypasses the internal crossover does that mean I can control the cross-over point of the horn and tweeter using the XLR jack with my rack mounted crossover?

I don't want to see the magic smoke.

Dookie
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Re: 115 international HC speakers

Post by Dookie » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:04 am

Lenartd wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:58 pm
Okay this may be a stupid question but I will ask it anyway. I also have a pair of Peavey 115 International three way speakers. I have run them in full range and they sound great. I have searched the internet for a manual and I haven't found one. I would like to bi-amp the woofers for mids and the horn and tweeter for highs. I have two Black Widow equipped FH 1's I want to use for low end. I hope to use a three way rack mounted crossover so I can control the cross over frequencies.

Here are the stupid questions. Can I use one amplifier for the bi-amp low input and another amplifier for the bi-amp high input? The bi-amp low input has a 1/4" jack. The Full Range/Bi-amp high has a 1/4" jack and a XLR female jack. Without a manual, I am guessing on the XLR jack function. If the low in jack bypasses the internal crossover does that mean I can control the cross-over point of the horn and tweeter using the XLR jack with my rack mounted crossover?

I don't want to see the magic smoke.
I've been owning Peavey products from 1988 or so and using them much before that. With the speakers with the larger horns going true bi-amp or tri-amp does yield somewhat better results. With the 115 International there is marginal improvement results by bi-amping or tri-amping. Your real improvement would be in just to bi-amp between the FH-1 and 115 Internationals. Have the crossover set around 100 to 150 hz. Send the low frequencies to the sub. The 100 to 150hz and above to the 115 Internationals.Well worth the effort and keeps things simple. Things to know about the FH-1. It is a low mid/low frequency box more than a true sub-woofer. It was designed to go down to 59hz or so and up to as high as 250 hz or more depending on what is used on top of it. It is an 8-ohm load from 59hz and above but if you go much lower than that it becomes a 4-ohm load as these lower frequencies are not affected by the horn loading. I'd recommend at least a 40 to 50hz Low Cut Filter to take these lower frequencies out of the box. The FH-1 is a very punchy box and from 60 to 250 hz and has very good output. The woofer in the FH-1 is serviced by removing the screws on the bottom plate and taking this plate off. There is a gasket that goes around this plate between the plate and box. With time it will crack and fall off. You want to check and make sure the gasket is still good and replace it if not. The woofer area needs to be airtight as part of the box design. That gasket leaking air effects the performance of the system.

Doug

Lenartd
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Re: 115 international HC speakers

Post by Lenartd » Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:46 am

Thanks Doug for the prompt reply. I have already bi-amped the FH 1's and 115 International's with two amps, a Crown XLi 1500 on the FH 1's and a CS400 to the full range jack on the 115's. While they performed pretty well I just wondered if tri-amping this speaker combination would give me the user control of the cross-over points. I understand that Peavey engineering has already chose what they feel is best. What can I say, I like to play.

Without access to a manual I don't have a good understand of what happens with Peavey's built in 1500hz and 8000hz cross-over when the 115's bi-amp low input is used. You stated in the earlier post, " Low in jack is a switching jack that bypasses the internal crossover".

Here is how I would like to try to connect this passive system keeping in mind I have a 3 way cross-over in my rack:

(1) Crown XLi 1500 to FH 1's
(1) Crown XLi 1500 to 115's woofer
(1) Peavey CS400 to 115's horn and tweeter

I suppose I could just rewire the 115 cabinet. Disconnect the built in cross-over, wire the 15" Black Widow to the low input jack, and wire the horn and tweeter to the full range jack. I am just wondering if I need too, considering my limited understanding of wiring and operation of this speaker enclosure.

I too am a big fan of Peavey equipment, this is some old, excuse me, vintage equipment I am using here. I'd love a user manual so I could try to figure this out on my own but no luck so far in sourcing one. Any input from this forum's users is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Dookie
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Re: 115 international HC speakers

Post by Dookie » Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:05 pm

The Bi-Amp Low jack is a straight shot to the woofer. The crossover section that takes 1500hz and above out of the woofer is no longer in series with the woofer. The Bi-amp Hi input goes into the crossover that splits the 22 horn driver and HT94 super tweeter at 8000hz.

If you use the Bi-Amp Low input, you'll need to have the woofer going from your subs high frequency set point, 100hz as an example up to the low limit of the horn. In this case 1500hz.

The 1500 hz was chosen not at random but in part because of the Size Of The Horn. All horns are designed with different crossover points selected in relation to size and interaction to the next driver down, in this case the 15. The 22 driver in the horn can be set to a lower point in different boxes with different lenses but you may not like the results if you do with yours. The Box Itself acts as a baffle too. A SP1 or Sp2 horn is larger and doesn't have much of a baffle to interfere, so a different, lower crossover point can be used. Also, power handling comes into the equation as well. The lower the crossover point the less power, in general, a horn will be able to handle. The 22 driver in your boxes may be original so they may be rated at 20 watts rms.

Another part of the equation is Phase. Or how the frequencies of each driver in the box arrive in time to form a coherent wave front. As you change crossover points, you'll have to consider the size of the wave in relation to the distance the drivers are apart and how they will sum. A SP2 has the same horn driver as in the 115 International. (not talking about the HT94 super tweeter) The Sp2's horn driver is much further back though than the same driver is in the 115 International. If you change the factory crossover point you may be messing with the phase response of the drivers and make it sound bad on or off axis. (standing in front or off to the side) So if you go to a lower crossover point your horn may not be ideal to handle the size of the wave or the phase may be no longer be right. If you set the crossover point higher the 15 inch woofers on/off axis response may no longer be right, and it may Beem high frequencies in a straight line in front.

To sum it up.

Bi-amp Low input. Stright shot to the woofer with nothing to take the lows or highs out of the woofer.
Bi-amp High input. Signal goes through the crossover so the split between the 22 horn driver and HT94 supper tweeter is still there but NO protection for the Low Frequencies that can reach the horn as far as I know.

It's fun to "play" but sometimes it hurts more than not. With 25 years or so of measuring speakers with TEF and later Smaart I've learned it's much more than just trying different crossover points. I had a set of 115 International series 3 and a pair of 118 Internationals which were the same box design but bigger than yours but with 18 inch drivers. Again as I believe you know Peavey had them designed with the best overall sound in mind. Bi-Amping or Tri-amping gives you slightly more SPL but with these boxes and all the years of knowledge I've acquired in using these and others the gain is slight and hardly worth the setup time and possible failure points. Both in sound and possible blown drivers.

Regardless have fun should you experiment. As always keep the levels low in testing. There is something you can do.

AT A LOW LEVEL.

Take a handle off and unhook the 15-inch woofer. Make sure these leads are not touching each other. I cover each lead that feeds the woofer with tape to be sure. Of course, remember where they go.
Go into the Full range jack with music, again at a lower level and listen to how much low end is coming out of the 22 horn driver. (the larger lens)
Now go into the Bi-Amp High jack and see if more low end is coming out of the horn. Not too loud, just enough to see if there is a difference. That will let you know if the passive crossover in the box keeps lows from reach the 22 horn driver below 1500hz or not when going into the Bi-amp high jack. If they both sound the same, then the crossover is still taking out the lows in both inputs so you can't set the crossover point lower with an active external crossover. If going into Bi-Amp High seems to let more low frequencies into the 22-horn driver, then you could "play" with a lower crossover point.

Test and play at your own risk.
Doug

Lenartd
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Re: 115 international HC speakers

Post by Lenartd » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:34 am

This forum is awesome. Your comprehensive post answers my question and provides real life test and solutions.

I absolutely don't want low frequencies going to the horn and tweeter. I will use your test procedure to confirm. The CS400 I want to use in the bi-amp high XLR input jack is rated at 120w RMS @ 8 ohm. You state the 22 driver "may be rated at 20w RMS. Since the cabinet is rated in full range @ 200w RMS continuous the built in crossover must have the ability to filter out low frequencies below the 1500hz for the horn and 8000hz for the tweeter.

So lets assume I use the 115 cabinet's built in cross-over with the CS400 and 3 way active cross-over. The active cross-over should have no effect on the horn and tweeter unless the built in isn't working or I raise the active above 1500hz. This gives the high end of this cabinet plenty of headroom with the CS400 amp and allows me to adjust the lowest frequencies out of the 15" woofer and take advantage of the black widow being driven by the Crown's 330w @ 8 ohm.

I pretty much just repeated your previous post. I just thought I would explain my reasoning and I am open to any of your comments. It has been my experience that having power amplifier headroom is a important part of the live sound equation. I have three amps in my rack and might as well use them. The FH 1 may not be the ideal sub at only down to 58hz, but for a 40 year old enclosure I can deal with missing that missing few hz of audible frequency. Getting the most out of the three way 115 is my goal. My desired setup may not do much for the high end in the cabinet but controlling the mid frequency combined with using a dedicated amp should potentially provide a performance increase.

I will let you know the results.

Thanks again!

Dookie
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Re: 115 international HC speakers

Post by Dookie » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:25 am

One last thing to consider. There is many different types of crossover filter types and slopes. There is the basic 3 like Linkwitz-Riley, Butterworth or Bessel crossover among others. There is also how steep these filters are. 6,12,18,24 etc per octave. In the passive crossover design of the 115 the woofer may roll off with a Bessel 12 db per octave and the horn and super tweeter may have 18 db Linkwitz-Riley filters used. This is done to get better phase alignment between these different bandpasses on and off axis and to take advantage of these types to get the best power handling. Like you said there is not a lot of documentation on these boxes so it's hard to say what filters they use. Without a FFT system like Smaart it will be hard to say what filters were chosen and should be used.

Second bit of information that may come in handy. Those switching jacks used to bypass the crossovers inside sometimes are not used for years. With time dust and gunk fill them up. They work by the 1/4 inch jack that is plugged in pushing tiny pins that break the feed to the crossovers depending on bandpass. If you start using these and they haven't been used in years this gunk may stop the signal from going through when you go back to the full range jacks at some point. If you find after using the bi-amp high or low jacks and go back to full range inputs different sections of the box no longer work you can clean them out with a blast of air or deoxit / contact cleaner type products. This has caught me by surprise before so I thought I would share.

Doug

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