Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

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Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Wooferhound » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:04 am

Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

I am building a larger Old School sound system It will be a 7000 watt 4-Way system using the DTH-1 for the Highs & High-Mids, a 415 cabinet for the Low-Mids and a couple of SP-118 cabinets for the Lows.


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Rebuilt the DTH-1 cabinets last month with fully working Scorpion 10 inch mids with the 44XT Driver with horn.


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Removed the Passive crossovers as they are not needed and would kinda get in the way electricly. They appeared to be 3-way crossovers being used in a Cabinet that is intended only for Highs & Mids. Saved them for later use.


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Removed any 1/4 inch jacks and added Some Speakon connectors for the individual Highs & Mids.


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A third NL4 Speakon connector is also hooked up to provide connections for for all the speakers from a single wire.


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After getting painted they almost looked new and it was all working perfectly.

This week I have rebuilt some of the old Peavey 415 monster big and heavey Sub cabinets and built up the Amplifer racks. Today after some painting I'll be testing half of it for the first time as a full 4-Way system to get an idea how it sounds. I will keep posting updates and pics in this thread.
I actually have an outdoor festival that I will be using this at in 3 weeks on the weekend of August 22 so we will all get to go on this ride with my new gear.
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by colliedogboy1 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:27 pm

Impressive work! Thanks for posting the pictures and details of what you're doing.

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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dookie » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:22 am

I ran a QW-1 / DTH218B system for some time. Remember the horn requires Constant Directivity Horn eq to sound right (CD Horn eq) They do require time alignment for the drivers as well. It is listed in the spec. sheet. A lot of work for a top box only rated at 126 db's output but it may be fun to do. At least until the weight starts to be an issue.
I used 3 Peavey CEX5 digital crossover for my setup. I seem to remember they had DTH-1 settings somewhere on line for DTH-1 system. May be worth a look around.
I wouldn't mix 118 subs with the 415's. They certainly would have different phase response and getting them right as a 4 way would be difficult at best. Of course with a good measurement system like Smaart it could be possible but unsure if it would be a big step up. Maybe have a DTH-1 / 415 subs stack on the Left and Right run 3 way with a few 118's in the center for added fill off an aux? ( the 415's may actually go a little lower if I remember right)
Looks like a fun project though. I'll look around and see if I have any of those speaker settings kicking around. I do remember looking at them many years ago.
Doug

https://peavey.com/manuals/80301658.pdf

https://peavey.com/manuals/80301014.pdf
Last edited by Dookie on Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dookie » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:33 am

Also note. When you said they appear to be a 3 way crossover in a 2 way system I seem to remember they had a Super Tweeter in them as well? A 94ht or something like that? I know some models did. Or it could be the 2 10s didn't cover the entire frequency range. Much like the Sp4's 2 - 15. Maybe the bottom 10 went from its low frequency limit up to 600hz or so where the 10 closest to the horn would go from the its low frequency limit up to the horns crossover point. A Quasi 3 way speaker? For the small advantage that bi-amping them would give I would have left the passive crossover with all the padding and CD horn eq in it alone. Just run a basic Bi-amp system. 415's 45 up to the low frequency limit of the DTH-1's. Simple , powerful and easy to power and setup. A lot of work went into those crossovers to get the job done. Not done right them gone may be worse than using them.

I'd take a good look at the spec's and see if they should have a super tweeter with them. It may have been removed at some point.

Doug

EDIT: Looking at the crossover you removed it certainly looks like there was a inductor in series with the bottom 10 inch woofer which would have made them a quasi 3 way speaker. That would mean the lower 10 inch was not designed to go as high as the middle 10 inch woofer so there wouldn't be phase cancellation issues between them. Taking that out would hurt the sound. Not sure how you can do this in the electronic domain other than Triamping the DTH-1. Horn with CD eq down to 1200hz with cd horn eq. Top 10 inch from 1200hz down to 120hz and bottom 10 inch 600hz or so down to 120hz. Maybe get hold of Peayey tech support to find out for sure or look for Marty here. Maybe you could just put the inducter in series with the bottom 10 inch.

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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dookie » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:52 am

Some model's , not sure about this one, had a super tweeter also like my rough drawing.
Super Tweeter.PNG
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Doug

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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Wooferhound » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:14 am

Thank You Dookie for all the information !

I provide Less Capable sound systems for people with No Money, it's a strange business model but it's working for me right now. so things stay Old School around here to keep costs down. I have a large inventory of old blown gear given to me by nightclubs and friends. I plan to fix that stuff up and make it work, I don't care if it's Old.

I was wondering if the horn needed the EQ for it. The crossover that I plan on using is a newer model V4X I got off of Craigslist. It had a bad transformer on the Very-High output. I had an older nonworking V4X that I removed the transformer from and fixed to newer unit. The V4X has the horn EQ needed. I have never had a problem with constant directivity horns before , the mains EQ has always been enough for me. The smaller system I have been using has RX22 horns and surely the 44t horn will kick it's ass.

I did see some pictures of the DTH cabinet with the tweeter mounted like your picture shows. The 44t horn is supposed to go up to 15,000 hz, which is enough for me. But I will be seriously considering using some Peizo tweeters to help finish off the highest frequencies.
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Wooferhound » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:15 am

Twelve years ago, Jim a friend of mine paid me to build 4 copies of a Peavey 415 cabinet. Several months later he wanted me to build 2 more of them but I didn't have enough time to do it so he had someone else to build them making a total of 6 copies made. The ones that I built were tanks and could fall of the truck going down the interstate and only be scratched. Last year Jim died and all of these cabinets were given to me at that time.

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The only real problem was , Jim had got a deal on some Pyle PYM-1578 speakers, so that is what they are loaded with. Not greatly efficient at 97db 1w/1m. The proper speaker for these cabinets is the Scorpion 15 inch rated at 101db 1w/1m, so they are 4db less volume per watt. I painted over all but 2 of those Pyle logos.

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They are all 12 years old but have never been used. 5 of the cabinets have the drivers loaded and one of them is empty and without a jack plate. Last week I rebuilt 2 of them. They had been in a moist environment and had patches of mold and a musty look so they got repainted to look new again.

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Original wiring was Series/Parallel to get an 8 ohm load and there were two 1/4 inch jacks on the connector plate. Rewired them into 2 sets of parallel connections. The 1/4 inch jacks were replaced with 2 Speakon Connectors that can also accept a 1/4 plug. So there are 2 Speakon inputs, one is the top 2 speakers and the other one is the bottom 2 speakers both of them at 4 ohms.

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These cabinets are split into 2 cabinets internally with a 1/2 inch plywood divider so they could possibly be used at 2 different crossover frequencies. the current plan is to cross them over between 120hz and 500hz.

I'll have more on the testing soon . . .
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dookie » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:51 am

Nothing wrong at all with picking up used gear and having some fun. I certainly did from time to time. Again the 415 may have more sub output than a 118 type box. I've witnessed 2 - 415's drive people right out of the room with the 3020HT system on top. A total of 12 15 inch drivers in the bass range a side! Not sure what model you have but some of the 118 subs only went down to 55hz average. I found the 44XT was more than fine up to around 16k or so. Like you I had no problems with that for high end. To save some heat you can roll the very highest of highs off knowing that the horn driver can't do that range anyway.

4 way is tough as you'll want to get the system as a whole in phase/time alignment. If you have the subs up to 80hz and its not in correct time/phase alignment with the 4 18's you'll could loose a lot of output in that range that no amount of eq would fix. Think of adding -10 to +10. The 2 bandpasses just cancel each other out. Around 80hz is where the bass drum punch likes to live so that may be quite an issue. If you have the 118's going up to 120 hz or so you'd be not taking advantage of the 415's at all. It would make no point in using the 415's from 120 to 500hz. I seem to remember with running a 415/3020HT system the subs were 45 to 100hz and the tops were full range to take advantage of their 2 15's in them as well. That stack really did work well! Might be worth your while to hunt for 2 3020HT tops. 1 3020HT per side with 2 - 415's under them would move some air ;-)
Doug

I heard a system much like this years ago and it sounded rather good. Sub 415 sub up to 150hz. 3020HT full range and horn for added coverage. 6 15's in the sub range worked well.
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dano0369 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:55 pm

Hey wooferhound; I've got a friend that still has a working complete project III. It's not much harder to set up than a versarray , just weighs a bunch. we get together again ill interduce you. Dano :arrow: :mrgreen:
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dano0369 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:58 pm

correction= project II mark III. with the ole cs amps .
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dookie » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:11 pm

""""The only real problem was , Jim had got a deal on some Pyle PYM-1578 speakers, so that is what they are loaded with. Not greatly efficient at 97db 1w/1m. The proper speaker for these cabinets is the Scorpion 15 inch rated at 101db 1w/1m, so they are 4db less volume per watt. I painted over all but 2 of those Pyle logos. """""

The Pyle Pro you listed is 101 db's 1 watt input. http://www.pyleaudio.com/sku/PYM1578
Its listed as 400 watts rms. I'm guessing your wiring 2 pairs of the woofers in series and then the 2 in parallel for an 8 ohm cabinet load? Or are you running wiring the box for a 2 ohm load or 2 4 ohm loads?
Regardless I'm guessing with the box wired for 8 ohms and with the Pyles 101 db rated output you'd be getting close to if not more output than the peavey speakers they normally were loaded with. The current driver. https://www.parts-express.com/peavey-sc ... r--294-313?

I'm still betting 2 boxes of the 415's under the DTH-1's would move some air ;-)

Doug

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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Wooferhound » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:16 pm

Dano0369 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:58 pm
correction= project II mark III. with the ole cs amps .
I actually have 2 FH-2 cabinets and 6 MF1-X horns, but not any MB mids at all, of course almost anything can be used as a Mid.
Those Fh2 cabinets have a peak at 125hz that nothing else can touch. Highly efficient, but time alignment is a bitch.
Did an outdoor Church Service this morning in 94 degree Full Sun. Took all the energy out of my 63 year old self.
Will have to give my test results of the Big System tomorrow.
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Wooferhound » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:04 pm

Dookie wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:11 pm
The Pyle Pro you listed is 101 db's 1 watt input. http://www.pyleaudio.com/sku/PYM1578
Its listed as 400 watts rms. I'm guessing your wiring 2 pairs of the woofers in series and then the 2 in parallel for an 8 ohm cabinet load? Or are you running wiring the box for a 2 ohm load or 2 4 ohm loads?

I'm still betting 2 boxes of the 415's under the DTH-1's would move some air ;-)
Doug
Hmmm . the Parts Express page I was looking at said 97db sensitivity. If Pyle are as efficient as the Peavey then everything changes. Your Link is a Parts Express page that with different ratings.
My 415s are wired as Two 4 ohm Parallel connections requiring 2 amplifiers.
I don't really trust the Pyle 400 watt ratings either.
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Wooferhound » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:39 am

Sorry this has taken so long , been feeling slow for a coupla days.
Front
Front
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So this is half of the new Sound Rig that I'm working on. two SP-118's on the left with 4 ohm drivers, 415 cabinet in the center split into two 4 ohm loads, and the DTH-1 High/Mid on the right at 4 ohms for the mids and 8 for the horn. This is just one side of the system with the same thing on the other side of the stage. The DTH cabinet would be on top of the 415 or on the stage if there is enough room.



Racks
Racks
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Here are the 4 racks for the system. All the amplifiers are IPR-1600 or Ipr2-2000 and output about 600 watts per channel into 4 ohms. The 2 racks on the bottom are Amps for the Left & Right side and include crossovers. The rack on the upper left is 4 channels for Monitors which will have a pair of speakers on eack output for 4 ohms each. Total power for One Side is about 3,250 watts, 6,500w total for the Mains, and about 2,400w on Monitors.
The rack on the top right is the Effects rack and contains 4 wireless mics, Marantz solid state recorder, stereo Compressors for use inserted into channels or groups, stereo Compressor for the Mains, 30 band EQ for Mains, and then four 15 band EQ's for the Monitors.



Back
Back
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Testing was done at 5:pm in the center of a huge neighborhood, aimed at an apartment complex 300 feet away.
Was using my phone as the music source, feeding a 6ch mixer with flat EQ, then directly to the Crossover without using any EQ, only the band level controls on the V4X 4-way crossover with horn-EQ off. Crossovers set to 120hz/500hz/2000hz.

Keeping the volume down to a neighborhood level, I felt it sounded a bit muddy or thick but with very small increases in the high/mids and highs it cleaned up really well. I never got more than 25 feet away from it and that may have been why it sounded muddy to me. Never heard 10 inch Scorpions before and was impressed with the clearness of the vocals. It ended up sounding fairly good and at the end I did crank it up enough to wake up some people for a half a mile away for about 15 seconds. Certainly needed some more help with a Graphic EQ, but now I am confident enough to carry it out in a couple of weeks for my outdoor show at the racetrack.
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Re: Building an Old School system based on DTH-1 and 415 Sub

Post by Dookie » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:32 am

Nice looking. Looks like a lot of work. The DTH-1 horn does require 12 db's of CD horn eq. But if you like it a little dull then its up to you. Let us know how the first show with them goes.

Doug
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