I just bought a pair of the new SP4 speakers. I can tell you that they sound great in the garage, but the true test will come when I fire them up in a large hall. Anyway, I was wondering, what is the best Peavey amp I can use to power these? I have a CS-4080HZ and a CS-4000. And given that the SP4's are rated at 4 ohms, am I correct in thinking that using the CS-4080HZ would give me approximately 2,000 watts each?

Yup, that would be the correct pairing given the other amp is a 4000.

Just pay close attention to the mixer levels and the amp's DDT lights so you don't send a clipped signal as you are going to be operating at the program level.

Cheers,
Steve


edit for spelling....more coffee.

Thanks for the info. The CS-4080hz it is then. Now, with those kinds of speakers, and that kind of power, how badly will I need new subs to go with the SP4's? All I have at the moment is an older pair of PV-118's. Any recommendations?

It depends.....
- what sort of music/speech are you planning on?
- how big is the venue?
- do you have a crossover?
- if you already have a CS-4000, and pending your needs, it would make sense to go along those lines, like an SP-118. 1200w/8.

The PV series is entry level. The SP series will do you better in the long run. Unless, of course, the system will stay in your garage all the time, then get what sounds good in the garage.

Cheers,
Steve

Well, let's put it this way. MOST of the time, I'm playing smaller halls in front of 200- 300 people. Would I need subs for that with the SP4's? I'm guessing no, but I haven't heard them outside the garage yet.

Now, there will be the occasional time when I'll need to go full blast for 800 kids at a school dance with lots of rap/hip-hop. What would be the best match for that? (To go along with the CS-4000)

Hi Hitman

Congratulations on the SP4 speakers and the CS amps! Yes you can add a sub to the SP4 setup, however, due to the way the SP4 are made you really need to consider using an auxillary send driven sub. If you simply electronically crossover between the sub and the SP4, you will lose a large part of the lower 15s frequency range.

The SP4s are what is called a quasi 3 way box - therefore they are designed to provide a very wide frequency response, especially the lower frequencies. The two 15s actually don't replicate the same frequencies - the lower 15 the lowest frequencies, the upper 15 the higher frequencies. Using an aux driven sub allows you to select just the instruments which need added low frequency emphasis.

As far as what sub will work, IT DEPENDS. With your CS 4000 in bridge mode then a single VR218 would be great.

Regards

Steve

...means subs if you want to get invited back.

Since you have a CS-4000, a pair of SP-118s and an inexpensive analog crossover would be your simplest, least expensive way to performance.

Option two, more expensive, would be get one SP-218 and the analog crossover, and bridge the CS-4000 into the SP-218. When $$$ permit, then another SP-218 and then you could trade up the 4000 for a pair of CS-3000s.

The CS-4000 in bridged mode is rated beyond the program level of the SP-218, but under the peak level, but caution is warranted.

A pair of SP-118s has another advantage - you can stack the SP-4s on top of them, but probably not on top of the 218s.

Steve brings up the Aux fed sub concept - a great idea for live music, but harder for DJ work. He also brings up a VR-218 - really nice cab.

I've given you lots to consider. Decision paths are not easy...
Steve

Thanks for all the input, everyone. It's definitely given me some options to look into. I'll check into all of them.

Hi all

I probably didn't read hitman's post correctly regarding his DJ use. My suggestion was more towards the live sound/band use. However, the VR 218 is an awesome sub and will take the full power that the CS4000 will deliver in bridge mode. Depending on how good you can negotiate, I think you should be able to purchase (brand new) one VR218 for similar or less money than two SP218 subs. Even with a simple electronic crossover between the SP4 and a VR218 or QW218 the effect will be very impressive.

My opinion (for what it is worth) is to have less quantity but at a higher quality.

Regards
Steve

I agree with Steve that one VR-218 will blow the doors off two SP-118 and probably even two SP-218s. Quality vice quantity cannot be ignored.

For DJ use, a few other points to consider:
- low freqs are pretty omni-directional.
- One VR-218 will put out a massive amount of lows
- People are an SPL vacuum.
- A pair of 118s under the SP-4s will give you a balanced, aesthetic look and put the low freq generation points with the rest of the music.
- If you 'center' one massive sub, my experience is you'll find people hanging around it to get their chest thumped 'cause it's cool and others further splayed out to actually dance to the music.
- If your rig is also at the center point with your sub, you'll be hearing a lot of lows and not the program - get a good pair of headphones.
- Having the sub(s) with their own signal and on their own amp for DJ use is a plus for controlling the amount of rattling going on. You have a bass control on your mixer (I assume) but you also have the amp gain control if you need more bass out of the SP-4s and less thump, or vice versa.
- Most analog crossovers (PV 23XO for example) have separate gain controls on each band, so yo have a third control point as well. Almost no excuse to get the sound right - especially in a gymnasium.

Just some more stuff to throw into your decision matrix.
Cheers,
Steve

Both Steve's generally give advice that is spot on.

However I think this thread requires a little more clarification.

Yes the SP-4 (SP-6/QW-4) is a Quasi-three way loudspeaker.

However, both of the 15 inch BW's go down to 40 something Hertz.
There is an inductor in series with the bottom loudspeaker that begins to roll it off at about 250 Hz at -6 dB per octave. This is necessary to provide the relatively flat response (+/-3 dB) that the system exhibits. If the bottom 15 were allowed to go up to the approximately 1.6 kHz X-Over point there would be a considerable hole in the response in the octave around the X-Over point.

This type of loudspeaker enclosure will best serve a customer as a stand alone enclosure. Many people just do not get it. When adding a Sub woofer below and setting the X-Over at say 125 Hz, the the bottom loudspeaker is only working for an octave. A bit of a wasted investment. You may have been better off to have purchased an SP-2 along with the sub.

I think that some cutomers choose the Quasi-thre-way because they are makeing a purchasing decision with their eyes, as indeed a SP-4 over a sub "looks cool" (or even kewl).

There have been customers that actually will put a single 118 Sub below the Quasi-three-way, and this is really a bit lame as they then have even less bass than they were getting from the two 15 inch speakers. Remember they do both reproduce the lowest register.

The amount of low end is directly proportional to the surface area of the cone. Now I would have to pull out my trig book to calculate the actual surface area of a concave loudspeaker cone, but I will use the diameter of the pistons to make my point. A = R^2 x Pi, so a 15 inch piston then has a radius of 7.5 inches. (7.5 x 7.5 x 3.1416 = 176.715). And 2 x 176.715 = 353.45 square inches of combined radiation surface.

A single 18 Inch piston has a radius of 9 inches, so 9 x 9 x 3.1416 = 254.4696 square inches. So by adding a 118 Sub and crossing over the system, you would be reducing your total radiating surface by about 100 Square inches.

This is another reason why sound systems should be engineered by qualified individuals, and not by uniformed customers or sales "clerks".

So the advice of using any additional Sub as an Aux fed sub with a quasi-thre-way loudspeaker enclosure is good advice. However DJ mixers do not generally have an Aux or Sub Out. (Although if I were to design one, it would). But you can still the have the outputs of the DJ mixer feed the input of a an electronic crossover as well as the power amp that will drive the SP-4's.

Now you would not want to necessarily parallel the DJ mixer outputs as you would lose the stereo capability.

Oh and Steve, your idea about using a single sub in the middle may NOT be a good idea for DJ deployment as if they are still mixing on a turntable, they would more than likely have feedback issues. Seen that one before.


I hope this helps.


Marty

Marty, I read and re-read your post and I confess I am confused by what you are describing. In simple terms, are you saying the SP4's are BETTER off without adding subs?

You also mentioned a "sub out" channel, which I do have and use specifically for my subs on a Kosmos.

I'm sorry for the ignorance on my part, but I need to know what would sound best for my application. I want to have the best sounding system possible, but at an economical price. MOST events I do don't require tons of power or bass, but I do about 4 or 5 events per year that have 800-1,000 crazy kids that want the rap/hip-hop stuff.

So in simplest terms, regarding the PV-118's that still own from my past system...are they useless with the SP4's, or would they add anything to it? I really do value your expert opinion.

Well Hitman, I just do not get, what you do not get!

I basically said you are wasting your money if you use an electronic crossover and separate the Sub out of the audio sprectrum. What part of less low end did you NOT get?

I did not know that you have a kosmos. So use your kosmos as you normally would with the additional hook up of your CS-4000 from the Sub output of the kosmos. Go from the Sub out to the A'channel input of the CS-4000, engage the parallel switch on the amp to also put the same signal into the 'B' channel. Hook up one each of your PV-118's to each channel of your CS-4000.

Now do NOT engage the switch that says something like separate the Sub from mains. If you engage this switch you will have less bass.

Why? Read my previous post again.

I am finished with this thread.

Sorry I'm cranky this moning. Didn't sleep well and just got back from walking the mutt. (see I am cranky) I need to have more coffee.

New rule: Marty is not to post until his second cup of coffee....

Marty,
Good morning. I just got up from a good night's sleep although it didn't start until 0230 due to the gig last night. I REALLY like what the QW-3s on top of the QW-218s do in a VSX tri-amp'd setup.

Anyway, yes, we have had this conversation before about the quasi-3 way cabs and additional subs. I did not know he had a Kosmos either. That would play in to the "Aux fed" scenario. Definitely the way to go.

Also, I stated, "if the rig was in the center" - I hope that no one actually does this if the the DJ is not elevated on a stage or some other vertical separation. I was thinking staged - sorry for the confusion. The mental picture didn't translate to the fingertips. If everything is 'ground floor", set the rig way off to one side.....

Hint: put some Irish creme in that coffee.....
Cheers,
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hitman,
If I may attempt to act as interpreter for Mr. "McCranky" & you:
Basically since the SP-4s have two 15" drivers that will already produce lows down to 40hz, adding an 18" to do the same thing is not frugal.
- If you crossover ALL the 125Hz and below to the 18" sub, and then all the 125Hz and above to the SP-4s, then you will have the one 15" driver in the SP-4s not doing its job at all and the other 15" driver only doing part of its job.
- Another rule is that you don't want different drivers (in your case a 15" and an 18") amplifying the same waveform. So sending the full signal to the SP-4s and then the same material but crossed at 125Hz & below to the subs will muck up (technical term) the low end sound.
- With full range to the SP-4s and a signal crossed over and electronically processed by the Kosmos, what you would be doing is sending a different waveform to the subs and that should sound great and complement the SP-4s.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you need more on this as Marty is "(although I think he will still read it.....
Cheers,
Steve

edit: spelling....

Hey Steve, check your PM